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	<title>Comments on: Probabilistic Proofs of Undecidable Sentences?</title>
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	<link>http://antimeta.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/probabilistic-proofs-of-undecidable-sentences/</link>
	<description>A general distrust of strong metaphysical claims in mathematics and philosophy.</description>
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		<title>By: none</title>
		<link>http://antimeta.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/probabilistic-proofs-of-undecidable-sentences/#comment-2738</link>
		<dc:creator>none</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>After a little more thought, there are actually 3 situations.

1. primality test: for any arbitrary P fixed in advance, for any epsilon, you can verify P&#039;s primality with confidence (1-epsilon) by doing 1-epsilon.  But, unlike primality tests, this procedure tells you nothing about the complexity of an R fixed in advance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After a little more thought, there are actually 3 situations.</p>
<p>1. primality test: for any arbitrary P fixed in advance, for any epsilon, you can verify P&#8217;s primality with confidence (1-epsilon) by doing 1-epsilon.  But, unlike primality tests, this procedure tells you nothing about the complexity of an R fixed in advance.</p>
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		<title>By: none</title>
		<link>http://antimeta.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/probabilistic-proofs-of-undecidable-sentences/#comment-2736</link>
		<dc:creator>none</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I should have said, about your normal number example, it&#039;s impossible to pick a random number with uniform probability.  We can only pick a definable real, and the definables are a set of measure 0 in any interval.  We don&#039;t have any reason to think they&#039;re not somehow special with regard to normality.  But with the coin flipping thing, we&#039;re hypothesizing that we really are (approximately) choosing independent samples from a specific, well-behaved probability distribution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should have said, about your normal number example, it&#8217;s impossible to pick a random number with uniform probability.  We can only pick a definable real, and the definables are a set of measure 0 in any interval.  We don&#8217;t have any reason to think they&#8217;re not somehow special with regard to normality.  But with the coin flipping thing, we&#8217;re hypothesizing that we really are (approximately) choosing independent samples from a specific, well-behaved probability distribution.</p>
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		<title>By: none</title>
		<link>http://antimeta.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/probabilistic-proofs-of-undecidable-sentences/#comment-2735</link>
		<dc:creator>none</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antimeta.wordpress.com/?p=185#comment-2735</guid>
		<description>I think &quot;1/pi is normal&quot; is like Goldbach&#039;s conjecture with regard to probabilistic proof, while the Kolmogorov complexity statement about 2 million coin flips is more like a pseudoprime test.  The difference is as follows.

Let N be a nice big number, like Ackermann(10000000000) or something like that.  Suppose we can experimentally verify Goldbach&#039;s conjecture for all even numbers up to N.   We might use our experiment to form a Bayesian prior hypothesis about numbers larger than N, i.e. &quot;for k&gt;N, the probability that k is a counterexample to Goldbach&#039;s conjecture is at most 1/N&quot;.   But, big as N is by the standards of normal human experience, it&#039;s smaller than almost all of the finite natural numbers.  We really can&#039;t infer anything about &quot;for all k&quot; from that hypothesis.  There is no probability distribution over the entire set of naturals that we can claim to have sampled.

The coin flipping experiment, on the other hand, samples from a known, finite distribution.  The sample space is the 2**(2e6) strings of 2 million bits.  The number of such strings with Kolmogorov complexity &lt;= 1 million is approx 2**(1e6) which means the probability of getting such a string from random flips is approx 2**(-1e6), and the probability that the assertion is true is about (1-2**(-1e6)).  Of course you can make it arbitrary close to 1 by flipping more times.  We really do get a quantifiable probability bound on the statement, just like with a pseudoprime test.

There is a rather powerful implicit axiom here, namely that flipping coins actually gives Kolmogorov-random bits.  They may not be perfectly p=0.5 iid since they are real coins which might have a tiny bias or correlation, but we can make fairly good estimates of the Shannon entropy which should be close to 1 bit per flip.  So, our creaky old physical universe is somehow capable of accessing mathematical truth (&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/abductive_inference&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;abductive inference&lt;/a&gt;) that is beyond being deducible from axioms.

What&#039;s more, if we subscribe to current beliefs about complexity theory, we really do need testimonial evidence (someone saying they actually saw the coins being flipped) to accept the statement.  The stronger forms of P/=NP say that we can make a cryptographic pseudorandom number generator that, given (say) a 128-bit uniform-random seed, can expand it to arbitrary size pseudorandom strings that can&#039;t be distinguished from true random bits by any feasible (i.e. P-time) computational process (of course it&#039;s trivial in exp-time).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think &#8220;1/pi is normal&#8221; is like Goldbach&#8217;s conjecture with regard to probabilistic proof, while the Kolmogorov complexity statement about 2 million coin flips is more like a pseudoprime test.  The difference is as follows.</p>
<p>Let N be a nice big number, like Ackermann(10000000000) or something like that.  Suppose we can experimentally verify Goldbach&#8217;s conjecture for all even numbers up to N.   We might use our experiment to form a Bayesian prior hypothesis about numbers larger than N, i.e. &#8220;for k&gt;N, the probability that k is a counterexample to Goldbach&#8217;s conjecture is at most 1/N&#8221;.   But, big as N is by the standards of normal human experience, it&#8217;s smaller than almost all of the finite natural numbers.  We really can&#8217;t infer anything about &#8220;for all k&#8221; from that hypothesis.  There is no probability distribution over the entire set of naturals that we can claim to have sampled.</p>
<p>The coin flipping experiment, on the other hand, samples from a known, finite distribution.  The sample space is the 2**(2e6) strings of 2 million bits.  The number of such strings with Kolmogorov complexity &lt;= 1 million is approx 2**(1e6) which means the probability of getting such a string from random flips is approx 2**(-1e6), and the probability that the assertion is true is about (1-2**(-1e6)).  Of course you can make it arbitrary close to 1 by flipping more times.  We really do get a quantifiable probability bound on the statement, just like with a pseudoprime test.</p>
<p>There is a rather powerful implicit axiom here, namely that flipping coins actually gives Kolmogorov-random bits.  They may not be perfectly p=0.5 iid since they are real coins which might have a tiny bias or correlation, but we can make fairly good estimates of the Shannon entropy which should be close to 1 bit per flip.  So, our creaky old physical universe is somehow capable of accessing mathematical truth (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/abductive_inference" rel="nofollow">abductive inference</a>) that is beyond being deducible from axioms.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, if we subscribe to current beliefs about complexity theory, we really do need testimonial evidence (someone saying they actually saw the coins being flipped) to accept the statement.  The stronger forms of P/=NP say that we can make a cryptographic pseudorandom number generator that, given (say) a 128-bit uniform-random seed, can expand it to arbitrary size pseudorandom strings that can&#8217;t be distinguished from true random bits by any feasible (i.e. P-time) computational process (of course it&#8217;s trivial in exp-time).</p>
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		<title>By: Kenny</title>
		<link>http://antimeta.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/probabilistic-proofs-of-undecidable-sentences/#comment-2734</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 23:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>That&#039;s an interesting idea.  However, I&#039;m not sure if this gives what would be called a &quot;probabilistic proof&quot; that such a string has high Kolmogorov complexity.  After all, nothing about the evidence would be at all different if the string had complexity of around 900,000 instead.

Consider the idea of a &lt;a hREF=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_number&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;normal number&lt;/a&gt; (that is, one such that in every base, all digits have equal limiting frequency in the representation of the number).  It is not hard to prove that in the interval [0,1], the set of normal numbers has measure 1.  However, no one thinks that this gives anything like a probabilistic proof that 1/pi or 1/e is normal.  It&#039;s not clear to me how your example differs significantly from this, except that there is a positive probability of error rather than probability 0 of error.

The Chaitin-type statements are interesting ones to consider though, since there is some very natural sense in which they are &quot;very likely&quot; to be true, despite the fact that they are unprovable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s an interesting idea.  However, I&#8217;m not sure if this gives what would be called a &#8220;probabilistic proof&#8221; that such a string has high Kolmogorov complexity.  After all, nothing about the evidence would be at all different if the string had complexity of around 900,000 instead.</p>
<p>Consider the idea of a <a hREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_number" rel="nofollow">normal number</a> (that is, one such that in every base, all digits have equal limiting frequency in the representation of the number).  It is not hard to prove that in the interval [0,1], the set of normal numbers has measure 1.  However, no one thinks that this gives anything like a probabilistic proof that 1/pi or 1/e is normal.  It&#8217;s not clear to me how your example differs significantly from this, except that there is a positive probability of error rather than probability 0 of error.</p>
<p>The Chaitin-type statements are interesting ones to consider though, since there is some very natural sense in which they are &#8220;very likely&#8221; to be true, despite the fact that they are unprovable.</p>
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		<title>By: none</title>
		<link>http://antimeta.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/probabilistic-proofs-of-undecidable-sentences/#comment-2733</link>
		<dc:creator>none</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 07:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antimeta.wordpress.com/?p=185#comment-2733</guid>
		<description>Suppose I flip a coin 2 million times.  It is almost certain that the resulting bit stream will have Kolmogorov complexity larger than 1 million (i.e. the string can&#039;t be compressed down to half its original length).  But by Chaitin&#039;s version of Goedel&#039;s incompleteness theorem, that assertion (about the Kolmogorov complexity) is Pi-0-1 statement undecidable in any reasonable axiom system (or you could make it even worse by increasing the number of flips).  There ya go.

(This example inspired by Leonid Levin&#039;s article here: http://www.cs.bu.edu/fac/lnd/expo/gdl.htm see his example of rolling dice to make an incompressible string)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suppose I flip a coin 2 million times.  It is almost certain that the resulting bit stream will have Kolmogorov complexity larger than 1 million (i.e. the string can&#8217;t be compressed down to half its original length).  But by Chaitin&#8217;s version of Goedel&#8217;s incompleteness theorem, that assertion (about the Kolmogorov complexity) is Pi-0-1 statement undecidable in any reasonable axiom system (or you could make it even worse by increasing the number of flips).  There ya go.</p>
<p>(This example inspired by Leonid Levin&#8217;s article here: <a href="http://www.cs.bu.edu/fac/lnd/expo/gdl.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.cs.bu.edu/fac/lnd/expo/gdl.htm</a> see his example of rolling dice to make an incompressible string)</p>
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		<title>By: Carnival of Mathematics #52 &#171; The Number Warrior</title>
		<link>http://antimeta.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/probabilistic-proofs-of-undecidable-sentences/#comment-2721</link>
		<dc:creator>Carnival of Mathematics #52 &#171; The Number Warrior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 06:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antimeta.wordpress.com/?p=185#comment-2721</guid>
		<description>[...] finally, a smattering of logic: Andrew Bacon discusses Restall&#8217;s Paradox, Kenny Easwaran endorses a particular kind of probabilistic proof, and I consider a slight variation on an old [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] finally, a smattering of logic: Andrew Bacon discusses Restall&#8217;s Paradox, Kenny Easwaran endorses a particular kind of probabilistic proof, and I consider a slight variation on an old [...]</p>
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